Marie Quigley: Hello, and welcome to the next episode of the Empower World podcast. As you know, I'm Marie Quigley, and today I'm with the quite amazing, inspiring, and all-round wonderful-and I can say that because she's also a friend of mine, as well as a professional connection-Karen Ledger Ledger. She's an executive therapeutic coach, a psychotherapist, an executive coach supervisor and therapist supervisor. She's a consultant, a trainer, facilitator, and an author. And Karen Ledger, you have been doing this work for over 30 years, so I know for sure there is so much more to you than that introduction. Welcome, Karen Ledger.

Karen Ledger: Aw, thank you very much, Marie. I'm honoured to be here. Such an honour, thank you.

Marie Quigley: We've been trying to get this conversation for a while, haven't we? I've been traveling, and you've been traveling, and we've got some travel coming up, so we've managed to slot it in the diary.

Karen Ledger: Yeah, just being with you is giving me a smile from ear to ear.

Marie Quigley: Same. I mean, we have the most incredible conversations over a cup of coffee. Always turns into existential questions about meaning and purpose, and it's really great, I think, to have you on our podcast, because I think the listeners can learn so much from your experience, your wisdom. Yeah, so how about we begin by you sharing a little bit more about who Karen Ledger Ledger is.

Karen Ledger: Okay. Well, I've always worked with people from leaving school at 16. I am neurodiverse, I'm dyslexic, so I left school with minimal qualifications. It was undiagnosed; nobody really paid attention. And I went into nursing, and I had a passion for the-well, I've always had a passion for fairness and what's right for people. And I saw quite a lot that wasn't right even then, in the NHS. And also, it's quite confining. I felt like I couldn't be as creative as I wanted to be, and I'd already been told when I was at school that I wasn't bright enough to be a social worker, and that stuck. I just dug my heels in a bit more.

I went to work with older people in residential care as a manager, where there was a lot more creativity. I could be much more creative. Working with older people, because it was such a deprived service, you could make a lot of change by not doing very much. We set up a career structure for support staff. I mixed elderly with children and families, and toddler groups, and I tried to be as creative as I could for older people to be integrated. Anyway, I could go on about that, so I won't.

Then I did a CQSW, which was a social work training. I managed to get to university-I managed to get to Hull University-and I had a full salary for 2 years, and I just felt so privileged, took off, and did placements elsewhere, out of Sheffield. Eventually, through that world, ended up in HIV and sexual health, where, again, there was a lot of room for creativity, because this was the early 90s. And I realized, as a social worker, I didn't have enough. So I re-started to train as a psychotherapist, because a lot of what clients were bringing were psychological issues. They were living in secrecy; it was really tough. And also, there was so much that the clients were doing for each other. So I wanted to support that in the best way I could, and I started a 4-year training course in psychotherapy. And then I moved out into independent practice eventually, about 1995.

Marie Quigley: Wow.

Karen Ledger: And also alongside that, I worked as an expert witness in catastrophic injury, using nursing and social work qualifications, which would push me onto an edge-a learning edge, a capability edge, every edge. But I learned so much from that work about clients' experience. And also, when I was working in the public sector, I learned a lot more about leadership and how I felt it should be done. I think because I had such poor leadership, mostly, when I got a really good leader, it was so refreshing, so freeing, and it just made the world a completely different world with a good manager and a good leader. So that's where my interest in leadership came from, and also because I've been a leader and realised how hard it was-how alienating it could be, how lonely it could be, and how tough to tell people tough things. So I'm a mix, really, of a strong practitioner, always a practitioner, and also wanting to support the world on a very micro level in terms of how people are received at work.

Marie Quigley: So many beautiful ways we could go down there. I mean, I'm interested in the word you used around creativity with your work. I know you're an artist, I know that because I've seen how you dress, I've seen how your beautiful home is designed and decorated, I know your gorgeous work behind you, so creativity interests me in how you bring it into both therapy and coaching. But I'm also noting how interesting it is, your journey, and what the kind of values and purpose that motivated you to make a difference in the world in your unique way, and how that took you on a path and stretched your edges, and pushed you out of your comfort zone, because this work really matters to you.

Karen Ledger: It does. It's part of who I am, I think, yeah. I just… I can remember… I suppose maybe because I had so much unfairness at school, and I didn't know I was getting it, necessarily. But, you know, I saw bullying from an early age. I just thought that's just… it used to-I used to have physical… I mean, most people would. And so, yeah, I think my work is very values-based. And that's not to say that I can't separate that out to be with the other, to be with the person, because I think that's so important. That's who we are. We need to be able to offer the conditions. For me, I'm person-centered in terms of Carl Rogers, and I offer the six conditions, because I know often people refer to the three core conditions, and of course there are six.

Marie Quigley: You name those six conditions.

Karen Ledger: No, I knew you'd ask me that. Okay, well, we might have listeners who aren't so familiar with the therapeutic work of Carl Rogers. A lot of training doesn't include those beautiful references that you and I are aware of. So, who was Carl Rogers? Why were you attracted to person-centered? And maybe what are the six core conditions? Not a good idea to ask three questions at a time.

Marie Quigley: I could do the six, but anyway, I wasn't attracted to Carl Rogers, if I'm truly honest. I was sent for my training, and I argued and fought with the person-centered approach with my great tutor, Keith Tudor. And after a year, I settled in, because I could hear and understand that this was somebody who was so connected to client work. So when I understood the six conditions-of psychological contact, empathic understanding, congruence, unconditional positive regard, the client coming with anxiety in a state of incongruence, obviously the congruent part is therapeutic congruence, and that they are at least aware, or to some extent, or can feel empathic understanding and unconditional positive regard to a sufficient degree-I don't know whether that's 6, but that's thereabouts. And it connected once I stopped fighting with my manager about being sent and not being able to choose my modality. Every time I read him, I mean, I go back to him quite often on holiday. I just think, oh my god, this is so powerful. I mean, there are lots of other people who are really powerful as well. I'm not just a single focus, but that's my foundation.

Marie Quigley: Right, so that person-centered approach with the philosophy of Rogers influenced your therapeutic work, and I'm guessing also your coaching work.

Karen Ledger: It does, because of the emphasis on the relationship. I think it's so important that we fundamentally have a good relationship with self first and foremost, and that that enables us to have good relationships with those around us. Unless we do that, it creates more of a fluidity, rather than coming from a fixed place. And it enables us to connect if we're more fluid, and we're able to take risks, and all of the things that we know as coaches and therapists. Whereas if you're coming from a fixed place, then Rogers talked about the seven stages of process, and if you're between 1 and 3, you're unlikely to come to the work from a really fixed place, so there needs to be a limited-at least a limited-fluidity for that to expand and grow.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, in simple terms, I'll often say to coaches, you can only support your client to go as far as you've been in your own experience of yourself. So, the vertical development-if you haven't done that, how on earth can you expect somebody else to go there, because you don't know what to do with it, you don't know how to experience it. So yeah, I'm with you that as coaches and-I'm not a therapist, but as therapists, it's so important to do our own work, and it's a never-ending process, I think.

Karen Ledger: I totally agree, Marie. I see myself as being in therapy for life. Not that I'm necessarily always with a therapist, although I have had a lot of therapy and coaching. I think for us, we need to experience what our clients experience, and we need to be in the places and dare to go to the places that they're daring to go to. If we don't do that-like, I went for group therapy when I wanted to set up a therapy group years ago. That's how I met my therapist. But I just feel there's always work that we can be paying attention to, whether that's in groups, in supervision with our peers, or with our supervisors. That is the work, and I think we should be-yeah, I think it's a should, actually, in this instance. We should be open to it.

Marie Quigley: And so, you began work, as you said, from a young age, caring for others. That moved into therapy, so still caring for others, but with a theoretical background. So, what attracted you to move into the world of coaching?

Karen Ledger: Oh, well, I could hear the dynamism of it, the energetic part of it. Because a lot of the time-well, not a lot of the time, but quite often in therapy, you're in a heavy place, a place that you're not necessarily in with a coaching client. So, I was really curious as to what the similarities and differences were. And when you start opening those doors, and then somebody steps in and goes, oh, would you like to join a practice group of a load of coaches in London that cost a fortune? And as a single parent, I'm thinking, I don't think I can afford to do that. Anyway, I pushed out the boat and did do that for about 2 or 3 years. And I realised they'd all been trained by Miles Downey, and one of them was actually a trainer on the course at the London School of Coaching, which clearly no longer exists. But I was really surprised. Pleasantly, they were talking the same language as us, as therapists. And there was quite a lot of energy, upbeatness, and awareness, and it did feel different to being in a room full of therapists, and I liked it. I really liked it. I wasn't prepared to move away from therapy, but I wanted to incorporate coaching, and it was executive coaching, working with leaders. Then I started to get clients, so yeah, it was just really lovely. And if I'm really honest as well, the money was attractive. You know, £40 for therapy has been constant in the 30-odd years I've been working in that world. I think people still charge that; some people still charge that. And I think coaching's really helped therapists to move their rates up a bit. I mean, I think coaching rates have come down, but anyway, that was also an attraction, if I'm honest. But the basis of where I work is if you work, the money will follow. Have I gone dark on your screen, Marie?

Marie Quigley: Actually, Karen Ledger, yeah.

Karen Ledger: I'm not sure what's going on.

Marie Quigley: Oh, you're coming back a bit. But yeah, you're light again.

Karen Ledger: Yeah, something wrong with it. So it really fascinated me, and it still fascinates me, actually, the similarities and the differences. And the clients that are drawn to one or the other, or both.

Marie Quigley: Yeah. You reminded me that Janine and I have obviously trained a lot of coaches, but we've also trained a number of clinical psychologists and psychotherapists who've wanted to learn what coaching does, and you described it so lovely-to move out of only the heaviness into some lightness in their work that honors what they wanted to create in the world. So, I really appreciate you naming that. And I'm wondering now, when a client comes to you, knowing that you're a therapist and coach, what is it they're looking for that they might not find in a coach?

Karen Ledger: Oh, do you know, this varies so much.

Marie Quigley: Which is what's so beautiful about it.

Karen Ledger: When I first started looking at this, my supervisors were very clear that you don't have dual relationships, so I was really nervous about starting combined work. Then I joined the BACP exec in the coaching division, and realised there was a whole wealth of people doing combined work. But this started for me in my practice from clients. They would read something about me, and they'd know that I was both. And they started asking for both. It came from clients, which is the right way, isn't it? That's a really beautiful way of it happening. It simply evolved from them. And I was really nervous to start with, and then I talked about that with them; I was completely transparent about it. And they were saying, well, I don't want to work with two people. I know there's work I can do in both areas. So they knew the differences. And so I went with that, as well as being totally reassured by my colleagues on the BACP exec, because we were starting to really think about and start to think of definitions to describe-because it's still early days for combined work. And so we came up with the name Therapeutic Coaching, and people started, as part of the exec, starting to write about it.

But for me, what was really interesting in terms of working with clients from their frame of reference was that they knew when they were doing what. So, because I work with leaders, they're generally really high functioning, and given that level of high functioning, it enabled them, I think, to discern where they were.

Marie Quigley: And was there any difference when you decided to bring both types of work to your clients, or they came to you knowing that you offer both? Was the contracting any different in how you thought about the work, from therapist to coach, and combined?

Karen Ledger: Yeah. I mean, it's no different in its transparency. But obviously, if you're working in a combined way, I will talk about the differences between coaching and therapy, and as I say, they usually know, but just so that we're all clear. I talk about that. And also, I'll say to them, when we get to those stages, if we're doing combined work and not separating out coaching from therapy-which these days I do less of; people start in one area and move into another-we'll talk about when we are, where we are, just to make sure we both know. I'll say, do you know, this is coaching. So it's an ongoing contract, as well as a beginning of a contract, if we're contracting for coaching and therapy. Does that make sense, Marie? Am I talking…?

Marie Quigley: I think so. I'm just wondering about when a client, for example, might need an empathetic listener, rather than somebody to challenge them and be provocative around the thinking. How do you determine, or how does the client determine, and what are the conversations around, this is what I need, this is what I don't need? There's a lot of questions coming up for me about that.

Karen Ledger: So quite often, I'm thinking of clients at the moment that I'm working with, they will often say what they're bringing to that session. So they will start the session, because I suppose because I've set up this culture, they will start the session by saying, I need to focus in this area around my leadership, and I want to focus on this, because something's cropped up personally from my history. There's a sophistication about it, really. And it's very different to when I'm working wholly as a coach and wholly as a therapist. There is a different-what's the difference? I suppose phenomenology is different.

Marie Quigley: Can you say more about what that means, phenomenology, Karen Ledger?

Karen Ledger: I think clients feel their way-my combined clients, as well as the single focus clients, feel their way through. Often I'm working-if somebody wants, so for example, one client I'm working with at the moment started off knowing, because he was so ill, that he needed to do the therapeutic work, start with the therapeutic work. He was having panic attacks, really tricky sleep, really anxious-I mean, over the scale anxious. And he was in a very senior position, so he was holding that. He needed to spend time doing this; he knew, because his feelings were so strong. And then once that settled, once his nervous system started to settle down, and his amygdala was calmer, and he wasn't so anxious, he could do the leadership work.

Marie Quigley: Yeah. I think that's such a lovely definition. I remember meeting somebody a few years ago in a hotel in Qatar, and they'd been recommended to me to come, but the conversation was all around their anxiety and their past, family of origin work. And I invited them to think about therapy, because it sounded like that was exactly where they needed to begin. And I remember them saying to me, oh, thank goodness that somebody said that. It's such a relief to know that actually-she said, I know it, but I didn't know how to articulate it. So, she bravely went to therapy. As coaches, we're supposed to be able to recommend people, so I had a wonderful group of therapists that I could recommend. And then when she was ready, she came back to me and asked, okay, now I want the type of coaching that looks deep inside, but is not therapy. It feels therapeutic, but it is not therapy, but it's also about imagining and visioning and staying well and healthy. And actually, we worked in a combination, so the therapist worked with her and I worked with her.

Karen Ledger: And you're talking about this as one person doing it? So what you're talking about there, Marie, is you're helping her clear the space to do both. So she had to do that first, to go off and clear the space before she could enter the realm of coaching. And so we're working with different layers. That's how I understand it: that deeper layer of someone's internal landscape, if it's getting in the way of their present layer, then attention needs to be paid to what's getting in the way. And his was trauma. It was very clearly trauma, and it was all being activated. That's not to say I don't think coaches-because I do hear coaches working with trauma, and working with it really successfully-so it's not that we can't do some of the work. It's just how our skills, our abilities lie, and what we feel comfortable with. But if it's there, I've got a strong belief that if clients know it's there, they know that you're psychologically informed, they know that you can work at a deep level, they know that you can work with trauma, they will go there. Because they know, they can feel it.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, that's also looking at the client as being in charge of their own destination, in charge of their own wisdom. What happens when somebody isn't? When somebody maybe hasn't learned the skills to know, and is unsure, because some people have covered that part of themselves. They're so used to other people making decisions for them. And so they might come to you looking for the answers, or to tell them what to do. How does that manifest itself in your work as a combined coach, therapist, Karen Ledger?

Karen Ledger: I mean, I can't think off the top of my head-clearly people will say, I wish you could tell me what to do, and I know you can't. I guess they know enough about that to know. They might say to me, how would you-have you got any tips about how to handle this? That's a different question.

Marie Quigley: Or they're feeling lost.

Karen Ledger: You know, so how do we work with the lostness? But off the top of my head, I can't-I mean, of course we'd all prefer somebody to sort it out for us, but ultimately, we know that can't happen. There aren't many people who-I can't think of anybody who's come in and said, how do you do this? I have had people who've said, I'm not gonna go and see a therapist, you know, because that's too risky. I remember working with a senior medic for coaching, and he wouldn't go, so I just did-ultimately, we did the work together. Because he'd got a relationship; he was safe in that relationship. He didn't think he was ever going to be safe in any other relationship. So I kept going, and I don't know what's happening there. I just think that this is what's before me, and this is what's before us. I'm not going to leave you out there in the cold just because-as long as I'm contracting. But he wasn't asking me to sort it out. There was a lot to sort out, because his job was on the line, and he was taken out of clinical practice. So there was a lot to sort out, so there was more direction, because we were given direction from a clinical assessment process.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, that's interesting. I appreciate what you said about sometimes we'd love other people to sort it out, and I think it feels like that sometimes, but actually, very rarely do we take people's advice.

Karen Ledger: And when we're working with somebody who is brave to ask the tough questions, is strong enough to be the mirror to reflect back what we're noticing, then our own answers emerge, and it feels so much better to make decisions ourselves.

Karen Ledger: I mean, actually, I do catch myself saying, that would be my way of doing it, not your way. And my way won't be your way, because we're two separate people. So let's try and find your way. It might take a bit longer than my way, unlikely as not, and it's gonna be your way, it's gonna be a lot stronger if it's your way.

Marie Quigley: And for coaches who are trained on useful models that support the focus on coaching, but are looking to do deeper work, what advice would you have?

Karen Ledger: Well, I'd say first and foremost, go do it. See how it feels. There's nothing more beautiful, in my view, than being alongside someone in their process, whatever that process is. And all the models and all the different strategies and techniques potentially get in between us rather than alongside a client and what they want and how they're moving. It's really important. It's more long-term, I think. But I do feel it's really relevant to stay with someone's internal process, internal landscape, and see where that takes them. Because what you're doing is building their core, building their strength, building their understanding of themselves. There's no greater gift than being aware, is there, of who we are and how we function in the world. Because that gives us our ultimate power and strength.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, I ditto what you say there. And you'll often hear the difference between therapy and coaching is that therapy is short-term and-sorry, coaching is short-term and therapy is long-term. And I couldn't agree less with that.

Karen Ledger: I know you don't agree with that, because you've got clients that you've had for 6 years or longer.

Marie Quigley: Yeah, and I think that if you're doing developmental, transformational work, then that is different to having somebody work with you for 6 or 10 hours who wants to achieve a specific goal.

Karen Ledger: Yeah.

Marie Quigley: And there's an absolute place for that. There's a necessity for that. I think I'm always challenging that difference that a lot of training schools say: coaching is short-term. It doesn't have to be. And as you said, it's that relational piece that can deepen it so much more than the models. The models are useful, the competencies are useful-let's get them in our bones, let's understand the ethics around how we work. It's important, and still, it's that relational piece that makes such a difference that you've just described.

Karen Ledger: Yeah. I mean, I do use models, particularly if an organization's directing me in that way. And how often somebody's stuck, I might think, well, a model might help, or the flip chart might help, or something might help that's outside of her or him. Generally, if they're in flow, though, they don't need a model. They're doing the work themselves without anything else. We've co-created the process, and that's when you see people-it's a bit like training, you know, why bring in an exercise when they're already doing the work? That, for me, is so much more powerful. But I'm not anti-model or anti-technique, and I think I can see a real place for them. And that's something we can all explore and see what works and what doesn't work. And it's a very personal thing at the same time.

Marie Quigley: Yeah. And so, I know we're coming to the end, and this has been a fascinating conversation, Karen Ledger, as always. How do you think about your own personal development as you're going through the years? How do you choose what's going to be most useful for you, keep you fit for purpose? What kind of practices do you have?

Karen Ledger: So, I do yoga. I don't look forward to it. I hope my yoga is okay. I have to confess, I don't look forward to it, but the difference when I've done it-and I have to have one-on-one yoga, because I know I wouldn't keep the discipline. It's a bit like-I can remember listening to him on the radio; he said, why don't we continue to do things that we know are really helping us? So, I try and have a balance. I love walking, you know I love walking. I have an outdoor practice and use nature as a complete resource, and I know that I always need to get out. I love relating. The people that come in are usually in for life, even if they don't stay for life. And I'm completely nourished by travel and food. I love cuisine.

On a professional level, I have a number of different supervision streams. I've got peer supervision, I pay for my supervision, and I pick up other supervisors when I'm doing different types of work, if I need to-like writing. I've got a writing supervisor. And I often go and do-these days, because I've done a lot of fundamental therapeutic work, these days I go when I'm struggling with perspective, or I feel like I've lost perspective in a particular area. And I go and hammer that out. I go and talk to somebody who is completely outside of my personal realm. Because with the best will in the world, there is nobody like a professional listener. Being the best listener, I've got lovely people around me, but they want to interject, and I need to get that stuff out before any interjection. I think that's hard for people that aren't trained and qualified in our world, and I think sometimes that's hard for even people who are, depending on how they're activated by it.

Marie Quigley: Yep.

Karen Ledger: So I try and hold a balance, and sometimes I fall off.

Marie Quigley: Slip off.

Karen Ledger: And think, oh god, I need to get back on it again. Because that feels to me part of being a human being.

Marie Quigley: Mmm. Absolutely, and as we said at the beginning, this work is never-ending, and you've been doing this therapeutic and coaching work for a long, long time, Karen Ledger. I can see how much it matters to you, how much you love it, how much you're doing in supporting others to come along the journey, those that are coming after you with your research and your papers and your writing as well about this. I'm sure we'll have another conversation on here about your continued development. And for now, Karen Ledger, if you'd like to leave the listeners with a thought or a reflection as they go off and move into their day, or their night, or their afternoon, wherever they are in the world. What would you leave them with?

Karen Ledger: Oh, well, I think it's Shakespeare-it's from Shakespeare? It's just gone out of my head, you know, in my dyslexic moment. But to thine own self, be true.

Marie Quigley: Beautiful. What a wonderful way to end this conversation. Karen Ledger, thank you for your time. Thank you for your wisdom, for your creativity. I want to have another conversation with you about that creativity, because it's so profound in your life. I'm grateful to spend the morning with you.

Karen Ledger: It's gone so quickly. You know, I'm sure people that have Desert Island Discs must feel like this. It's just flown, thank you. I hope it makes sense when you play it back.

Marie Quigley: Thank you, listeners, we appreciate you listening in. As always, if you like it, share it. If you've got comments, we want to hear about it. If you've got things you'd like us to talk about, or if you want Karen Ledger back and want to ask her some questions yourself, send in those questions and we'll get her back on the show, and any other guest that you've really enjoyed. Thank you for giving us your time. It's always an honour to spend this time with anybody who wants to listen. It's our purpose to really make a difference in the world of coaching and beyond. Thank you for listening.

Karen Ledger: Thank you.