Jeanine Bailey: Hello, and welcome to the next episode of the Empower World Coaching and Leadership Podcast. Today, I'm truly delighted to be with a very special guest, David Clutterbuck, one of the pioneers of the coaching and mentoring industry. And I know, David, you've been a part of my life since I began my coaching journey, as I have read a number of your books. I know you've written and co-written many—about 80 so far, yes. Very, very impressive. And we've certainly been a part of many associations, like the Global Supervision Network, the EMCC, so I've had the opportunity to listen to you many times through webinars, et cetera, as well as I've done your training, the team coaching practitioner training, through Tammy Turner. So, yes, I feel you are very much part of my life.

And so, David, I am thrilled to bring you on the podcast because you are one of the original pioneers in this profession of coaching, and I know you'll share a little bit more shortly. And your work is prolific. You are part of the faculty at many universities on their academic boards. So I really appreciate the service and the passion that you bring to the coaching profession, and mentoring as well. I realize and recognize that so many of us have benefited from what you bring into this world. So, I know I've potentially missed quite a bit about your background, so David, over to you. Welcome, and please share whatever you need to share about yourself for those who may not know you yet, but I'm sure many of us do.

David Clutterbuck: So, what can I say? Except that I think it's a great privilege to have been involved with coaching and mentoring since the very beginning. And somehow, you know, first we had mentoring starting to move from something that was just ad hoc and just happened informally, to something that became organized. And then along came coaching. Coaching had been around in sport, but then suddenly it moved into the business world as well. And so, what we've seen is this vast explosion of applications of coaching and mentoring over the last 40, 50 years.

And so, when I think back to my first involvement with mentoring in about 1979, everything has changed dramatically. And I guess that's the theme of what's preoccupying me now, is the changes that are happening now, which are even more radical, and creating a very different environment, and perhaps even a different purpose for coaching and mentoring. Certainly for what we've seen in coaching is that, if we go back to the 1990s, and coaching, as it was emerging, was all about individuals, working with one person to help them perform better, or to get a promotion, or to get some work-life balance, or something, but it was nice and simple. That's not true anymore. Everything about coaching has become much, much more complex. And so the work that we've been doing over the last decade and more has been increasingly focused on how do we work with greater complexity. And the complexity comes from the clients that we have and their needs.

So, we did a piece of research for the Conference Board in its European operations a lot of years ago, and one of the results of that research was that some of the HR directors in the focus groups we had were really concerned that a significant proportion of their most senior executives were technically obsolete, because they couldn't let go of command and control, they couldn't get to grips with modern leadership. And they couldn't work with—they couldn't understand complexity. They were trying to get certainty and control things and make things happen so it was predictable, and that's not the world we live in. And so, suddenly, they're out of their depths, and they try and control more and more, and achieve less and less. And so we've got this epidemic of imposter syndrome across organizations, so leaders are increasingly worried, and don't know how to cope with it all.

And then we've got coaches who have been overall, typically, I've done a coaching course, so I can go and work with anybody, but then we're finding that the issues that the clients have aren't simple anymore. And if you think of Dave Snowden's Cynefin model, you know, there's simple issues, which are linear, there's complicated, there's complex, and there's chaotic. So, even just 10 years ago, things had moved from being simple issues, or complicated—somewhere between simple and complicated—to being complicated and complex in clients. Now, they've moved, in many cases, from complex to chaotic. You don't—there is no right answer. You've got to actually work with the uncertainty and live with it. And this is a completely different environment. So coaching has to catch up.

And that means that coach education, the ethics of coaching, a whole variety of things need to be reexamined and reshaped in a vastly different world from when we started. And then you add into the mix artificial intelligence, AI. AI can already do a large part of what a GROW model coach can do, better, more consistently, and it can also fake empathy better. So what we've got are all these twin forces—well, more than twin, there's multiple forces happening that are changing the environment for coaching, and coaches have got to catch up.

And so, we've had a number of research projects going on that have really been looking at what's happening here. And one of those research projects is into coach maturity. So, 15 years or more ago now, we observed dozens and dozens of coaches—in one case, there were 80 in one go—who were attending coach assessment centres. Now, we don't see many coach assessment centres now, but at the time, they were quite common because organizations were saying, well, we've got these people that we're hiring as external coaches, and we know that some of them are good and some of them are not, and the bit of paper they wave actually doesn't tell it, it just tells us they've gone on a course. It doesn't tell us how good—they might have some knowledge, but they don't actually—they may not have the artistry.

And so, we observed them in role plays, we had interviews with them. In some cases, we had a psychological interview, because there are some coaches out there who are completely nuts, and are dangerous. I think one of them, I recall, she was floundering around in the role play with the real clients, and it was going nowhere, and suddenly, from nowhere, she says, yeah, so tell me about your relationships with your mother. And the poor client disintegrates because her mother had died the week before. And so, in the assessment centres, we always had to have somebody there who could be with that client, and keep them safe, you know, and help them to—but this is the kind of thing that we were seeing, and to our horror, we found that consistently, 70% of coaches at that time could not hold a meaningful developmental conversation. Now, we hope that's continued coach education, but the reality is that having a bit of paper, or being able to follow a process, is not what's associated with great coaching.

And we found that there were four mindsets. So mindset one, as a beginner mindset, was, I'm going to do coaching to somebody. So they're gonna—I've got a model, and they're gonna have to fit it. Then mindset two was I'm gonna be coaching with somebody. So, in Mindset 2, you were actually giving the client more opportunity to shape the conversation. It was a conversation with, not directed by. And then there was a smaller group than these two, where you integrated who you were with what you did as a coach. So it's being a coach, not just doing coaching. And then the ones that were most wonderful, and we just amazed at how powerful their coaching was, and what they achieved by doing so much less, we call them systemic eclectics, because they saw the client in their own systems. And they had a big toolkit, but they used it very rarely. They were there, they just held the conversation. So, we described that as holding the client while the client had the conversation they need to have with themselves. Now, we still recognize that that's the minority of coaches. It's a small proportion of coaches.

And a while ago, we got, with the Coach Maturity Research Group, which we formed 5 years ago, we started to do research, and we didn't want to go back and repeat the same thing, apart from anything else, coach assessment centres were out of fashion. So, we went to lots of coaches, and we did, who do you regard as a masterful coach? And then we interviewed the people that were recommended by several others, and mostly these people were people who clearly had a lot of experience, a lot of reflection, and so forth. But we learned that they basically had evolved, and so what we were trying to get was, how did you become the coach you are now? And a large part of it was letting go of stuff. Letting go of the need to have some kind of outcome in the coaching session. Not necessarily. The clients, you know, we're trying to advance their thinking. Very often, it's way after it that they get the sudden realization of what they want to do. They need time to reflect. Letting go of goals, because goals can sometimes be a dangerous distraction. You know, sometimes they're useful, sometimes they actually get in the way. But having that understanding, that deeper understanding that the conversation and the relationship are what matters.

And so, the other thing that we found that was fascinating was that the more mature coaches became, the more like mentors they became, in the real sense of the word. So, a mentor is somebody who uses their wisdom to help you become wiser. It's not somebody who tells you what to do. That's a myth that was created by some American coaches who wanted to put distance between themselves and mentors, because they, basically, they were charging people for it, and mentors weren't. So then we go back to the 1990s, where that myth comes from. But essentially, what they do is to help the client have the conversation they need with themselves. And so we see that all coaching and mentoring are about clarity, helping somebody see the things differently, or through different spectacles. And if you help somebody understand their internal world, then that's great, so how do I work? What are my challenges? What are my biases? And all those kinds of things. That's useful. What are my ambitions? If you also help them to understand the outer world, so what's going on here in my profession, around me, and so forth? What are the opportunities? Who are my champions? That's also very helpful. What we're doing in coaching and mentoring is putting those together.

And the real difference between coaching and mentoring: coaches would tend to spend more focus on the internal proportionately than the mentors will, because the mentors have the experience to craft questions that are more insightful around the external environment, but also to basically empathise more about the situations that the person's in.

So, coaches would tend to spend more time on the internal system of the person, because they don't have the depth of external experience or related experience that a mentor would. And so, a mentor is able to often ask better questions, to empathize more, because they've been there and seen it, and been in similar situations. And they're more likely to use parable and story to help give the person information they didn't have. So it's the difference between giving somebody context, which helps you with your thinking, and giving you advice, which does the thinking for you. And a mentor doesn't give advice, not if they're properly trained. Except in exceptional circumstances. So, all of that is helping coaches to become more mature, and they need that maturity. And the reason they need it is because they're working with increasingly complex systems and situations.

So, what we're now seeing in coaching is that we have to support coaches in their education, in growing into higher levels of maturity, but greater and greater ability to work with complexity. And in some of our recent studies, we've identified 10 levels of complexity in coaching. And it's mind-blowing, in some ways, how complex it can be. Without going in detail through every level, if you start off at the very bottom level, sort of GROW model coaching, you can help somebody with getting to the next level in getting a promotion, sorting out a behavioral issue, learning a skill. That's straightforward, that's 1990s-style coaching. But then you start to look at the person, and you're starting to work on the person within their systems, both their internal systems, if you want, for transformation, but then the external systems, how they influence the world around them. And then slowly you get to coaching the team leader to create the coaching culture in their team. And then you go beyond that to coaching the team and the team leader together on performance issues. But beyond that, you go to coaching the team leader and the team together to influence the system of which they're a part. Because most teams, whether they articulate it or not, believe that they're victims of the system, not influencers of the system. And so how do you change that? So there's a big difference between what's called systemic team coaching, for example, which is about multiple relationships with individual stakeholders, and complex adaptive systemic team coaching, which is all about the interconnections between the players in the system. So how can you change the way the system works in order for your team to deliver better, but also to add more value to the system?

And then we work up through coaching functions or departments, coaching organizations, all the way to coaching the metasystem. And the examples we've been able to gather here, basically, we're combining the role of coach, facilitator, politician, you name it, but it's a whole raft of different skills, which enables us to address big social issues.

Jeanine Bailey: Beautiful. Yeah. David, thank you for sharing that wisdom. You have highlighted so many different perspectives about the role of coaching, the role of coaches, how coaching can impact self, others, the system, and the need for coaches to really develop themselves, to become more mature as a coach, potentially as a person as well, to be able to navigate these complex systems that we are all a part of. And even if we are coaching one-to-one, it's still, as you highlight, it's still complex. There's an individual influencing so many things around us, but also we are being influenced by so many things that are around us as well. So it's being aware of all of that. It's having the maturity to recognize that it's not simple, it's not as simple as ABC, it is really looking at everything around us to be able to create awareness and develop that maturity, develop that adaptability, and what I'm also hearing is take responsibility for what we can do ourselves to impact the system.

But really appreciating the distinctions that you've brought.

David Clutterbuck: I'll make one other distinction, which is just an interesting one. We talk about maturity, but maturity and growing up are not the same thing. One of the things that we've learned is actually retaining enough of that playfulness of the inner child is an important part of being an effective coach or mentor. Being able to laugh at oneself, being able to see the ridiculous in things, being able to have humor and playfulness is fundamental. I have no intention of ever growing up.

Jeanine Bailey: Great! And likewise, I also hear and feel that playful child within that just wants to—actually, she was quite stifled as a young child, so she wants to come out much more now. And I totally agree, it's a—we know that humor is one of the effective ways of bringing into learning to support our learning, by taking ourselves lightly, but also recognising yes, there are serious things to address as well within the system, but utilizing that playfulness in a way that is going to support and empower individuals, teams, organizations. So, I really appreciate you bringing that in.

David Clutterbuck: It's one of the things that we've found in our studies of high-performing teams. And we were lucky, some years ago Facebook gave us their highest performing teams globally to play with. And it was wonderful to get in there and see what's the lived experience of being in a really good team versus the lived experience of being in other teams, both in that same organization elsewhere. And one of the things that we found there was the quality of the relationships is important, but that the leader didn't feel they'd got to manage everybody. They felt they should create the conditions where people could manage themselves. And so we've done a lot of work since then around what is effective leadership? And it's fascinating that there are over 5 million books and articles, I think it's 4 or 5 million, on the qualities of leaders, and hardly any on how leaders add value. And in our studies, what we've done is to take some of the research that does exist and go around and say, well, you know, into teams, in your experience, which things have to be done by a team leader, and which can be distributed in part or whole? And, amazingly, we've only found two things we can't find examples of the responsibility being distributed. One of those is getting the mission and the authority and the resources from above, and reporting upwards. The other is protecting the team from interference from outside so it can get on with its job. Everything else we can find examples of the team taking part or whole responsibility, including discipline, bonuses, you name it. And this is a very different way of looking at it, and so part of the role of a coach or a mentor is to help the team leader create those conditions where people take accountability and responsibility automatically, so things don't fall between the cracks.

And so now our work led us to do an enormous literature search. And we were able to ultimately boil down over 140 different factors that were mentioned in the evidence-based literature that influenced team performance. And we boiled those down to just 6. And those six things were: having a purpose and motivation. So, you know, the purpose that we have, we all realize, we all have it on the same page as to why we're here and what we're trying to achieve, and we're all energized by it. And then there's the external stakeholders. How are we linked with them? Are we listening to them? Are they listening to us? What's the quality of the relationship there? We know from early research in the 1990s, that's a critical factor in team performance. And then you've got relationships inside the team, that's psychological safety, primarily. And then you've got the internal systems, how the team manages things like communications and decision making, or organizing the work. And then you've got two L's in this acronym, PERIL. And firstly, is about learning. How does the team adapt, learn and adapt to its environment? Is it doing it fast enough? And then leadership, as we said, is about the exercise of accountability and responsibility. So what we find is that we've now got data from our diagnostic around this, called the Peril Diagnostic. We've got data on 500-plus teams. We can't find a single issue brought to team coaching that is not the result of a combination of those six factors. Which is quite remarkable. Everything that comes up, whether it's conflict, conflict is a symptom, not the cause. So, you know, when you go look at the cause, it's lack of clarity over work processes, maybe the team leader's weak and not giving people conflicting instructions, et cetera. But you can always trace things back to those six, or what's going on in those six key areas.

And so we're now working with organizations around the world to actually use this data to work out how do we help a team? And what we're learning is that whenever a team is able to bring into the open the big variations in perception of people in the team, like psychological safety, for example. So, the team leader and a couple other people might think there's high psychological safety, and a few other people might feel there's jolly well not, but nobody talks about it. But once you actually bring the issue into the room, and you start to talk about it, you can do something about it. And what we are able to get from where we've got before and after data is, on average, it's about—there's just over 11% improvement across these factors, or a minimum of 11% improvement on each factor over a period of months, simply by having the conversation about where people in the team are experiencing the team differently. So, sort of full circle, if you like, all the way back to the original work in Facebook. And so what coaches have to be able to do, I believe, is to help the teams see their own complexity, and then work with that complexity. So that's very demanding on the team coach. It requires a whole different, additional set of competencies, if you like.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah, it really does, David. And I really, again, appreciate your dedication to research what helps teams in complex situations, to highlight those six items in PERIL, which I'm aware of through your training, which is incredibly helpful. And again, it highlights the need for us as coaches to continue our own development as a coach, to continue to develop who we are being, but also that awareness of how we can support individuals, but also teams, which are absolutely in these very complex environments where they're sitting within systems, within systems.

David Clutterbuck: And where are we going now? I mean, a lot of our research at the moment is focusing on teams of teams. You know, the big question is, why can't people in an organization respond with the speed and adaptability that a flock of birds can? And it's a great—you put a thousand people in a football field and try to get them all to move without lots and lots of training, and you're going to have the ambulances taking away all the broken legs in no time. And so how do birds do it? And we now understand some of that technology through—it's only been the last 15 or so years that scientists have been able to understand how a flock of birds is able to manage those swift movements without banging into each other. So we're trying to replicate some of that. And so we're talking of teams of teams, and looking at the principles behind how do you, as coaches, work with the team of teams rather than just individual teams?

And one of the critical principles we've identified is that organizations are primarily organized on vertical communications. But the flock of birds communicates, or instinctively responds to three separate sets of signals. One of them is a general sense of direction. They're all constantly looking—there's somehow a composite direction. This is the direction we're going suddenly, so it's a heading, but also the distance between each other, to the side, or from front to back. Same principle. So, whereas organizations are like the bird, focusing from front to back, we also need side to side. And we've been finding that horizontal communications, very subtle, are one of the critical factors to creating a high-functioning team of teams. So, this is a big area of both research and practice for us now, going in, supporting teams so that you've not got just lots of little high-performing teams, but the whole structure doesn't work very well. You're actually looking at the whole structure. And this is an area that there are very, very few coaches qualified to work in, but I think it's one of the biggest areas that we will see development in. And we begin to see technologies AI can help in these situations.

But it's, I mean, as an example, you see in one part of an organization, there's something, something comes up. It's an anomaly. It's an issue that's not been seen before, but it's not treated very seriously because it's dealt with and you forget it. But if that same anomaly is occurring across the organization, but nobody knows, you know, everybody thinks it's just in their area, it's just one of those things. Forget about it. But when you've got the same anomaly appearing multiple times, it's not an anomaly, it's a trend. So, identifying the trends that are happening, responding to those trends, that's like the birds, not keeping exactly the same distance from each other. So, we're beginning to see how we can make organizations dramatically more agile by increasing the quality of the communications, and it requires a team of team coaches who have got to exemplify teaming as well. And so there's so much potential here in improving the value added that we have when we move from coaching teams to coaching teams of teams.

Jeanine Bailey: Wonderful metaphor, the birds, the murmurations that happen, and you know, as you brought that in, it just made me realize how incredible that is—how birds can move as a flock, and to bring teams together, organizations together in that same sort of formation as much as possible. It really does highlight the huge benefits of having a team-of-team approach. And again, for us as coaches to develop our skills and ability to be able to adapt and work with that complexity. It's not a straight line, as you said, back in the 90s.

David Clutterbuck: Let's talk for a minute about leaders, because we focus on coaches, but we know that leadership is changing quite dramatically, and leaders need to rely on their teams and be vulnerable with their teams. And that's hard, you know, learning to be vulnerable is very difficult. And one of the things that we've really focused on has been how do you create a team from scratch that's high-performing? And you've got loads of consultancies out there, you know, half-baked theories and concepts, which people accept because they're so well promoted, but which actually have very little evidence behind them. So, I mean, one of the things, you're keeping all this forming, storming, norming, performing? Complete nonsense. Based upon macro studies of people who were patients in therapy. So, therapy groups, that's not a great place to start when you want to create a high-functioning organization. And so what we've been looking at is what actually happens when you want to create a high-performing team from day one. And one of the critical lessons that we've learned is that, actually, a lot of it is in the preparation. How do you understand the system in which that team will be nested? So, where does it fit in the system? How does it influence the system? What is it dependent upon the system for? When you start to define those things, you get that clarity that you can share when you bring the team together. You can immediately start focusing on the twin processes of building task—being able to work the task together, so managing the task, and all the capabilities and skills that you have, making those dovetail, but also on building the relationships, the trust, and the psychological safety, and so forth. So, actually, simply training every leader in being able to create a new team from scratch, fast, is one of the most important things that we see in terms of organizational agility.

Jeanine Bailey: What would you say, David, then, to those who are already leading a team, based on what you've just shared in terms of supporting the leader to bring a team together from scratch? What would you say to those that are already there?

David Clutterbuck: Well, the first thing to ask the team is, what is it that I do that enables, that supports you in doing your job well, and what is it that gets in the way? It's a really powerful question. One of the things that I do with team leaders that I work with, I ask if they would have the courage to be coached by me in front of their team. And so we do this, and then we turn to the team, and we get comments from the team. What we're doing there is building that vulnerability, and we're creating psychological safety in that team. And if they—occasionally, I'll get the team leader to go a step further, and be coached by a member of the team while I hold the safe space. Powerful. And this is enormous fun.

Jeanine Bailey: Fun and powerful. I think sometimes we don't recognize just how powerful simple interventions can be.

David Clutterbuck: Yes. And if we want to get the best out of people, they have to feel that they are valued. That they have to feel able to speak up. The brilliant work of Amy Edmondson on psychological safety over 20 years or more has been a great contribution to this. So, it's about—we're increasingly working with the system: the individual system, internal and external, the team system, the organisational system. You know, this is where we—this is where coaching is at for the future.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, thank you, thank you, David, for really bringing in your wisdom, your knowledge, your research, to support the listeners in terms of what is happening right now in terms of complexity, and what we need to do as coaches and leaders to continue to be able to create that flow like a flock of birds, to be able to work in unison, adapt to the conditions that are showing up. So, David, what, in your wisdom, what would you share with the listeners, in terms of parting words, in terms of what they can do to come up to speed with all of this complexity?

David Clutterbuck: Well, obviously read, but, and if you have a chance to go from one stage, into coaching individuals to coaching teams, then do, because that gives—we know that learning team coaching, and I'm sure you have this experience too, actually helps you with your one-to-one coaching. It just gives you a different perspective, it's really valuable. And the more stages you can get, but don't try and run, you know, don't try and get into team of teams coaching before you've done team coaching, for example, so take it step by step and slowly. But the other thing is supervision. I think that the greatest joy I have is working with supervision groups, and particularly, I enjoy working with supervision groups where we're focusing on complexity, on coaches, we're looking at the complexity of the system. And also, I love working with the supervision groups that we have of people who are neurodivergent coaches, because they bring a different perspective. And constantly, if we're looking for different perspectives, if we're challenging our perspectives all the time, then we're going to grow.

But, you know, and thinking about how mature am I as a coach? Where do I want to go? And becoming mature is not about acquiring more tools and techniques. I mean, yes, you can have those things, and you can use them, and it's great, but actually becoming a more mature coach is letting go of more. And it's about achieving far more by doing far less. And actually, as coaches become more and more capable, they can influence systems by observing, pointing out, helping people around—the clients and the teams to understand their systems, and allowing them to make the decisions about what happens. And so, we're moving away from the coaches who somehow bring about change, to coaches who create the clarity where people can create change for themselves. And that's a big step for many coaches.

Jeanine Bailey: Yes, yes, absolutely, David. And I also believe what I'm hearing from you is through that maturity, through that development of self and letting go, it's also listening to ourselves as an instrument as to what's perhaps happening externally as well, so it's becoming much more aware of what we are experiencing, and being able to share that to provide a meta perspective in that complexity. So, through supervision, through team coaching, being aware of systems and systems thinking, but also doing the internal work as well, is what I'm hearing.

David Clutterbuck: But we're putting out—every week, pretty much, we put out a blog of some sort around some of these issues. And we're trying to stimulate people's thinking, we're trying to help them to challenge themselves. So if anybody wants to access that, they just have to come on to my website and sign up, and they'll get the latest things that we're working on, and it's very eclectic. You know, we've just got one going up this week on recent research, and not my research, but fascinating research, on how having a sense of self-purpose has a positive impact on people's mental stability in adulthood. So as a child, if you're as an adolescent, if you have a sense of purpose, of self-purpose, you are much more likely to be mentally stable over the rest of your life, or certainly in your 20s, 30s, 40s. And so, those kinds of things, getting that—just getting a sense of what's happening there. All of this links together.

And I guess one of the things that I'm most proud of, I suppose, is the experience that we've been doing, and we hope to see these come to full fruition next year, well, in 2026. We are aiming to get 5 million school-age coaches and mentors. So we've been working with schools in the UK, in Malaysia, Russia even, and South Africa, experimenting, developing the materials and approaches that will enable kids, even as young as 11 and 12, to mentor or coach their peers. And the learning that they're taking from this, it's giving them greater self-esteem, more self-purpose in life, and those qualities are going to stand them in really good stead when they become leaders in organization. And I think this is a big ambition. I hope to see it come to fruition while I'm still here. But I think this is the kind of thing—we have to think big as coaches. Or if coaching is all about helping one more middle-aged, rather overweight, boring executive, male executive, get one more step up the corporate ladder, that's not really what it's about. We have bigger things in mind.

Jeanine Bailey: Yeah. Wow, that is so brilliant to hear, David. You've actually made my dream come true, which, you know, when I learned these skills of coaching many, many years ago, I just thought, this needs to be part of our growing up, our education system. These skills, which I truly believe can create a better world for us all. So it's magnificent to hear. So thank you for making my dream come true.

David Clutterbuck: It's my dream too, so I'm sure many. But it has been a dream, but I've thought, how do I make that happen? So it's wonderful to hear that you are making it happen.

Jeanine Bailey: Truly amazing. David, thank you ever so much for being here, again, sharing your wisdom, your insights, encouragement for the coaching profession, knowing that potentially there are many coaches who might be wondering, you know, what's going to happen to me as AI comes in? But you were really highlighting how we can add so much value in organizations, in teams, in communities, by again developing what we do to be able to meet the complex systems that we're all part of, to adapt, to change, to grow, to develop, and just be, as well, be that reflector of what's happening in systems. So, really appreciate everything that you do, David. Thank you for a wonderful, wonderful conversation, although, of course, I haven't said much, but I appreciate you bringing in your—

David Clutterbuck: You said you were going to wind me up and set me off, so that's fine, that's fine.

Jeanine Bailey: I'm glad I haven't said much. So, again, listeners, you'll be able to access David's website and contact details in the links below, so please do reach out to David in terms of LinkedIn and his website. And again, we thank you, David, and for all the listeners, for tuning in to what David has shared. David, any parting words before we go?

David Clutterbuck: I just thank you, everybody, for listening, and you know, this is a great privilege to be a coach or a mentor. It's a privilege to be a leader, as well, in today's world. So let's take it as a privilege. And privileges come with responsibilities. And so, let's balance the two.

Jeanine Bailey: Brilliant. Thank you, David. Thank you.